問：單身和婚後出家的人，兩者間有何不同？

實法師答：正因為有家庭關愛的束縛，往往幫助他能看透而永遠的出家。即使父母窮困，只要他們愛護你，你就是很有福報的。你來出家，會吃些苦，但就我所知，每個來自和樂家庭的出家人，因為出家後他有個好「歸宿」了，比當初硬要他去結婚生子，會讓家人感到更加幸福和安心。

和尚來自希臘字monos，是單獨的意思。無論是用任何一種法門來修行，唯有獨行，你的智慧才能成就。所以要得到智慧或者解脫，除了獨行，沒有第二條路可走。

持法師答：在亞洲佛教國家中，有些單身的女子 ，就已經決定要走這條路了。她們無論從風俗習慣到研究教義，都對出家有了充分的理解。我們僧團的許多尼師就屬於這一類型，她們是很有潛力的一群。

上人准許一些已婚有子的女眾出家。他可能會罵我們：「誰叫你去結婚生子的？」但是若因緣成熟，他會答應我們。不過這不是對所有已婚有家的人 。上人教導已婚的人要重視家庭關係，履行婚姻的責任，所以他往往不會答應有家庭的人出家。但是因為上人允許年紀大的人來出家，所以也開了善門使許多有家室責任圓滿的人也能出家。

問：如果我們對於是否要出家還不確定呢？

持法師答：南傳允許人在童年時嘗試短期出家，然後回到世俗組成家庭。直到晚年，覺得時候到了，才過起寺院生活。

實法師：泰國流行一句話，大家知道嗎？「若你真正出家達兩年，你會做個更好的丈夫。」這是說如果你出過家的話，你會是個比較好的對象。

持法師答：上人從來沒有提倡過短期出家。我認為他到美國來，是抱著一個崇高的理想、任務和責任想在這兒把出家修道建立起來，出家修道應該是終身的職業。我認為這件事他做得很成功。因為，女眾在加入我們僧團以前，要跟我們面談許多次，得到我們的認可才行。我們不容許有人是為了逃避才來出家。她們必須已經不逃避人生，如果她們仍然想要出家，出家之門才為她們而開。

問：在萬佛城，要做一名尼師或和尚，得經過什麼階段？

持法師答：如果是女眾，妳需要簽寫出家申請表，你必須在道場修行兩年，這期間妳不一定會待在原地方，到隨所派之處去。這段期間內，我們會和你面談。如果大家都覺得妳是出於正當理由而想出家，那麼你就可以落髮，做沙彌尼，隨所派之處再住三年。你會有新生訓練，並學習過出家的生活。這時候，還會有一次面談。要是通過了這些，第五年你就可登壇受戒成為一名受具足戒的尼師了。因此你會有很長的時間來考慮這件事。

問：這段期間，費用誰來付？

持法師答：在亞洲國家，願意出家的婦女，多少受過一些教育，她們想走這條路，會把錢捐給道場。至於西方人，美國人多半不會去想將來的事，我們會讓他們以工作來抵。

問：你怎麼知道時候到了呢？

實法師答：有這麼句話：「如果時候到了，50匹馬也擋不住你入寺院的門。如果時候沒到，50匹馬拉你也拉不進來。」我說你需要問問自己那個問題，而且用心聞聽，因為你可能已經在寺院門前盤旋很久了。如果你自己舉棋不定，會有一大堆懷疑的聲音冒出來：「你還沒看過巴黎呢，說不定你不久就能拿到博士學位了。」所以是你要自己踏進佛寺。換句話說，若是你還放不下世間很多事情，那你自然又會馬上跳出去的。所以你必須好好地聽聞，聽聞自己的心。但是要是出家的時候到了，你想跑也跑不了。

簡單的說，如果你真正認識了痛苦的本源是什麼，那你還等什麼呢？你不會說：「我知道苦惱了，可我喜歡它，越多越好。」懷疑是苦，迷惑是苦，心地不清明也是苦。如果我要出家，第一個問題會是：「我認識苦了嗎？」如果是的話，你要怎麼做？你會克服它，或者你會如何處理它?

問：你如何給自己充電打氣，持續寺院修行的生活？

實法師答：當你考慮這種生活方式的時候，不妨去「觀世音」（聽聞世間之音），於是你就會發現這正是自己想去的地方。我剛出來的時候還是60年代：言論自由運動、越戰、暗殺、警察暴動─我的朋友被警棍打等風起雲湧的一個時代。這些企圖改造世界天真的年輕人，是如此地純真、努力和堅決，但他們卻面臨了大時代末這個不爭的事實。這個體系有問題，它把願意參與其中的那種美好感覺和意願全看作是無法無天。因為發覺自己的善意並不能改變這個世界，就轉向吸毒麻醉自己。大概吸個兩年之後吧，世界依然故，只是自己變得遲鈍麻木了。可見享樂主義和行動主義絕不是解決事情之道。如果我心裡也是充滿憤怒與混亂，那我就跟那些憤世嫉俗的人沒有兩樣，只不過他們手握著我沒有的「權棒」。

當我看到上人，就覺得他活脫脫是一位從經典中走出來的人物。他簡直像個「古人」，他非常、非常喜樂（安祥自在）。沒有一件事能夠改變他的平等心。我不能跟他說謊，因為他會看著我，說道：「欸，那樣很笨的，我已經看到了，你還有什麼要告訴我的呢?」我一看到他就知道，要改變世界是要改造自己的心，我不曉得自己能不能辦到（像他的教化）。我看到他是如何盡他所有地來幫助想尋求解脫的人；也看到他多願意奉獻生命於使這些年輕人順利出家，雖然後來人們令他失望和傷心；不久他又好了，沒事了。我從上人的言行，看到「智慧」，他無盡的慈悲活生生地留存在這世界上，我願意盡我的生命使它在西方世界綿延不斷，那是我還在努力的。師父容忍的失望遠超過我所能想像的多得多。上人說他第一名的能力就是個「忍」字,要對這個國家的年輕人有耐心，這樣你的心靈才能常有源頭活水。

並不是出家就沒有苦惱了─這種是你甘願去受的苦，例如打坐時，甘願長坐在腿痛裡。因為別的方式受的苦惱不是出於志願，所以我寧願有所選擇。我發現自己有機會以佛法來改變社會與世界。我不是個政治活躍者，也不是享樂主義者，而是一個藉著所修的佛法，希望能對世人有所幫助的修道人，給我希望改變世事。

待續

Q: Is there a difference between leaving home as a single person or after you have a family?

A: DM Sure: It's precisely the ties of a loving family that allow someone to see through and leave home and stay left-home. If your parents provided you this solid foundation of care, even if they are broke, you are blessed with that core of well-being. And you come forth from that to leave home. There is a certain amount of suffering. I never knew anybody who came forth from a loving family who didn't make the family happier as a left-home person, than if they had started a family and delivered grandkids.

The word “monk” comes from the Greek word monos, meaning alone. It is only by “going alone,” that you accomplish wisdom in any tradition. There is no other path to wisdom or liberation.

A: DM Heng Chih: Women make that decision young in the Buddhist countries. They decide while they are a virgin that they are going to follow that path, and they know enough through custom, and through studying the teachings. There are many nuns in our association who are like that and they have tremendous potential.

The Venerable Master allowed some women who had been married and had children to leave home. He might admonish us, “Who told you to get married and have a kid?” but if our conditions were right, he would accept us as nuns. However, that was not true for most married people with families. The Master taught married people and families to nurture their family ties and fulfill their marital responsibilities. So, he did not often allow married people to leave home, given his concern for family commitments. However, our teacher did allow older people to leave home, and that opened the door for a lot of people who had already fulfilled their family obligations to leave home.

Q: What if we are not sure about such a commitment?

A: DM Chih: In the Theravada tradition, it is acceptable to leave home temporarily as a child to get the taste, then go back into lay-life to raise a family. Then at the end of your life, everyone understands that it is now time for the monastic life.

A: DM Sure: People know the cliché in Thailand. “If you leave home for two years, you make a better husband.” They say that you are a preferable match if you have left home.

A: DM Chih: The Venerable Master never advocated temporarily leaving home. I think he had a big vision; the duty and responsibility in the United States to try to install monasticism as it came in, but “monastic” meant a profession for life. I believe he has succeeded in doing that. Because in our Sangha, we interview our women many times before they leave home, and we are sure. We are not allowed to let people leave home who are leaving home for various kinds of escapism. They have to pass beyond escapism. If they still want to, then the doors are open to them.

Q: What are the different stages to become a nun or a monk at CTTB?

A: DM Chih: As a woman you come in for a while, and if you are interested, you can decide to stay. At some point you have to sign a paper and say you would like to leave home. Then you must remain in a monastery for two consecutive years. It doesn't have to be at the same place, and normally it is wherever you are assigned. During that time, we interview you to find out what your interests are. If you reach the point where people feel you really want to leave home for the right reasons, then you get your hair shaved and go through three more years living wherever you are asked to, training as a novice and learning what monastic life is like. Again there is an interview. If you pass all that then in the fifth year you can become a fully ordained nun. So there is a lot of time to think about it all along the way.

Q: During that time, who pays for the expenses?

A: DM Chih: In Asian countries women would decide to leave home who had gotten their education for a while. Knowing they were going to take this track, they would save money and contribute to the monastic environment. In the Western model, they don't think about overhead for the most part. We allow them to work for their keep.

Q: How do you know when the time is right?

A: DM Sure: There is a saying: “If the time is right then fifty horses couldn't keep you from entering the door of the monastery. If the time is not right, fifty horses couldn't pull you through.”

I say you need to ask yourself that question and listen very carefully because you could wind up dancing at the door of the monastery for a very long time. If you allow yourself to have doubts, there will be plenty of doubts. All these voices come up: “You haven't seen Paris. Or maybe you can get your PhD now.” So there is a time that you have to step into the monastery.

On the other hand, if you force yourself in and still have all kinds of things you want to accomplish in the world, then you will bounce right out. So you have to listen to yourself carefully. Listen to your own mind. When the time comes, you can't avoid it.

If you really recognize suffering for what it is, then what are you waiting for? It is like saying: “I recognize suffering, but I like it. The more the better.” Doubt is suffering. Confusion is suffering. Not being clear is suffering. The first question if I was going to leave home is: “Do I recognize suffering?” If you do, then what do you do? Do you cope with it? How do you handle it?

Q: How do you replenish yourself and continue to be part of the monastic life?

A: DM Sure: When you consider the alternative, all it takes is guan shi yin, [“listening to the sounds of the world”] and you realize, “Yes, I'm right where I want to be.” I started out in the sixties, which was a turbulent time of the Free Speech Movement, the Vietnam War, assassinations, police riots, where my friends had their heads hit by police batons. It was amazing because my friends were very pure, determined, innocent young people who wanted to make a difference in the world, but they faced the reality at the end of the “bigger sticks.” There was something wrong with this system. All this good feeling and willingness to get engaged was outlawed. I moved away from the idea that my good wishes could make any change in the world. The next thing was drugs – “tune in and tune out.”

After smoking dope for two years, you just became dopey and numbed yourself while the world was going on. So hedonism and activism weren't the answers. If my mind was full of anger and confusion, I was no different from the people who were angry, except that they had a “bigger stick” than I had. When I saw Master Hua, he was like someone who stepped out of the sutra that I had studied. He was basically a gu ren (an “ancient”). He was deeply, deeply happy. Nothing outside could change his equanimity. I couldn't lie to him. He would just look at me and say “Yeah, that was really stupid. I’ve seen that. What else can you show me?” When I saw that, I knew that the way to change the world was to change my mind. I wondered if I could do that.

I saw how he could offer everything he had to someone who seeks freedom, that he would give up his life for these young men to leave home, and then be disappointed and hurt. And then he would be fine. I saw wisdom. It is alive in the world. I want to give my life to keep it going in the western world. That's how I keep going. The Master took more disappointment then I can imagine. He said his #1 strength was ren, patience to deal with young people in this country. That's how you keep the fountain going.

It is not that leaving home is not suffering - it is suffering that is voluntary. You choose to sit through the pain in your legs. You choose to go through the long hours. Because the alternative is suffering that is involuntary, so I'd rather have a choice. I feel I finally have a chance to influence society and the world through the Dharma that I practice. I'm not a political activist, or a hedonist, but I'm a cultivator of the Way, and that gives me hope of changing things.

To be continued